Even years after he opted out of tumult of Canadian politics in which he
created an unrivalled milestone with his election in 2000 as the first
India-origin premier of British Columbia province, Ujjal Dosanjh, 72, is
widely recognised as an influential and insightful voice in the Maple
country and beyond. Steadfast and clear-eyed in his ideological stand
against Khalistani extremism, the former federal minister and Liberal MP
revels in speaking his mind even if it is contrary to the party line.
One thing he doesn’t skip is his at least once-a-year trip to his native
village Dosanjh Kalan near Jalandhar from where he, then 17-year-old,
had migrated first to Britain and later Canada in the ’60s. Dosanjh
spoke to Executive Editor Ramesh Vinayak in Chandigarh on Saturday on a
range of issues from the new wave of migration from Punjab, India-Canada
relations and Punjabi diaspora to ethics in politics. Edited excerpts:
Punjab
has in recent years seen a wave of migration of young population to the
West, particularly Canada. What do you make of this?
Canada
needs people and also knows that people from India, including Punjab,
are well-versed with English as a language, more than the Chinese. The
number of Indian students has outstripped the Chinese. They allow
foreign students to stay as permanent residents because they need a
skilled workforce. Canada’s population will decline if we didn’t have
immigrants. This, from the Canadian perspective, is a better way of
continuing to increase its population. It is a smart move to bring both
talent and money into Canada.
What does it mean for Punjab?
I’m
conflicted on this. I’m a Canadian and also an Indian. Punjab should be
worried because it is losing energy. It’s like a safety valve. You are
losing the young and talented, the aspiring young men and women who want
to do better in life. If they start leaving in a significant number,
that urge and pressure for change in Punjab itself is released. Punjab
will suffer in the long run. There is also outflow of money. Previously,
you had remittances coming into Punjab. That is low now. The money flow
is in the other direction to support studies because foreign fees are
high. Families are selling assets to finance their children abroad,
hoping they will be immigrants. Punjab has to find a strategy to use its
own youth to fuel growth here.
Why don’t youngsters see hope here?
It is a humongous problem. Successive governments have failed to create that sense of hope.
What
is your take on the India-Canada relations that turned frostier
sinceCanadian prime minister Justin Trudeau’s visit last year?
This
strain goes back to 1998 when Canada imposed sanctions after India
conducted the nuclear test. When I became premier of British Columbia in
2000, I was officially invited by New Delhi and met prime minister Atal
Bihari Vajpayee. For a while, things were unclogged, but Trudeau’s
election in 2013 set the whole process in reverse motion. That was
partly because of the Government of India’s perception that his
associates from the Indo-Canadian community are essentially Khalistanis
or Khalistan sympathisers. Then, Trudeau’s trip was bungled completely.
Little was accomplished. The two PMs may not have seen eye to eye.
Sometimes the relationship between countries depends on the chemistry
between the leaders. Since then, the relationship is on the backburner.
Khalistani extremism has become the most sticking issue in bilateral ties?
That
is my belief, too. Because it goes back to the time when the Trudeau
government forestalled Capt Amarinder Singh’s travel to Canada ahead of
the 2017 Punjab assembly polls. He had just wanted to speak to the
Punjabi diaspora who don’t vote here. That was offensive and
hypocritical as Trudeau, during his India trip later, visited all kinds
of temples in all kinds of garbs – and all this was meant for elections
back home.
New Delhi blames the Trudeau dispensation for soft-pedalling on pro-Khalistan elements who spew venom against India?
Until
recently, the leaders of most Canadian political parties, including
Liberals, have been participating in religious processions, including
the Baisakhi parade, where floats glorifying Khalistani terrorists are
put up. Trudeau’s trip highlighted the tensions and it generated a
debate in Canada. Now, Canadian politicians have been put on notice that
this is improper and they should not be doing it. Hopefully, that
implicit condoning and glorification of terrorists will stop.
How serious is the threat of Khalistani extremism?
In
Canada, the United Kingdom and parts of the United States, it is a
serious issue. Not in the sense of numbers but in the sense that if five
or 10 people stand up and say that we are aggrieved at what happened in
India in 1984. Because of the religious sentiments, other people don’t
say anything and they simply follow the lead. But in terms of the real
impact on India, it is less so because India is a big place. Even 3,000
diehard Khalistanis in two or three foreign countries are not going to
make much impact on India. In fact, it is much more dangerous for the
host societies. Because the dream of Khalistan will remain in the
cranial cavities of the second or third generation who were born and
raised in Canada, and some of them have never visited India. They are
fed the lie of Sikhs today being persecuted, massacred and discriminated
against. If you continue to believe that lie and there is nothing to
counter it, it becomes a problem in the form of a ghetto of Khalistani
ideology developing in Canada which may be more worried about some
perceived grievances and imagined situation in Punjab than the real
issues in the home country. That is more dangerous for Canada.
Given that pro-Khalistan ideology has no resonance in Punjab, what keeps it alive in Canada?
At
one level, it is linked to identity politics. More important is the
recent past. Post the 1984 massacre, people were angry. But they
realised that it was an aberration. That Hindus and Sikhs have never had
problems. There has been an unquestionable integrity between the two
communities. If you have a riot or a massacre, people still need to live
with each other. They realised that ordinary people saved each other
and that neighbours are not enemies but friends as they have been for
centuries. So there is that ameliorative effect of living together. So
there is an opportunity to heal because you see everyone living
together, inter-marrying and no discrimination. Manmohan Singh became
the prime minister. The country had a Sikh army chief. Those became
healing symbols. But in Canada, if you are an immigrant or born and
raised there and if you have that anger and grievance in your head,
there is no context to heal it. In the ’60s when I went to Canada, there
were few Hindu temples. Most Indians worshipped at gurdwaras. That had
brought the communities together. Today, there is no such thing. Though
there are personal relationships and inter-faith marriages, there is no
composite living as it is in Chandigarh or in my ancestral village in
Jalandhar. That fragmentation of life allows these grievances to fester
in people’s heads without any counter to it. That will remain a problem
for long unless the leadership in places such as Canada begins to say to
these people: ‘Hey, we see no problem in Punjab. If you see it, go and
fight it. But in Canada we need to live together, worry about the here
and now, and move on’.
What kind of sway do Khalistanis have among Sikhs overseas?
They
are a tiny minority. In terms of sway, it is the silence of the
majority that allows Khalistanis to claims that they have vast support.
The
2018 Public Report on the Terrorism Threat to Canada, tabled recently
in the Canadian parliament, acknowledged Khalistan extremism as terror
threat. Is it a signal that the Trudeau government has woken up to
India’s sensitivities and is attempting a course correction?
I
found that report encouraging. Of course, the Khalistani elements were
upset and so were some of Trudeau’s ministers and MPs at the mention of
Sikh radicalism. I wouldn’t call it a course correction. But, it’s a
beginning and may help thaw Indo-Canadian relations.
Which are the social issues facing the Punjabi diaspora in Canada?
The
gang problem has been more significant than the drug issue. The gang
problem revolves around drugs. We’ve lost more than 200 youngsters,
mostly Sikhs, since the ‘90s. I was the attorney general when the first
Punjabi kid was killed and he happened to be a Dosanjh from my village.
How has the diaspora’s participation in power politics in Canada changed?
There
are more people participating; that’s good. I worry more about the
quality and caliber of people coming to politics. They say more the
merrier. But, I say ‘better the merrier’.
You speak passionately about ethics in politics. How does India fare?
Not
to be critical or partisan but it saddens me when I look at the canvas
of Indian politics. There is really no moral or ethical leadership in
this country. Not to criticise any one current or past, but we must
recognise that ethically India is wanting; Indians are wanting. Without a
deep sense of ethics in each and every Indian, India will not make the
progress as fast or the kind of progress it could make. India produced
so many prophets, saints and reformers because this country needed them.
Unfortunately, they did not succeed in transforming India ethically. We
believe that once there was ‘satyug’. My belief is that India has
always been in search of ‘satyug’, but has not achieved it. I wish it
does in my lifetime.
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